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Vocations of young boys |
iggy
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09 February de 2003 at 06:41:22  
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Someone recently wrote in the forum the following: "The fact that they talk to the boys whistling at school no longer a lack of sensitivity and above all professionalism. But it is no aberration"
I'm really matter if they do so more or less sensitive or more or less professional. The trouble is that the Opus Dei institution consents or has consented in the past because I know how things stand today, the systematic abuse of young boys. Have been granted the right to interfere in their consciences to make decisions very important delivery in the life of a person. |
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| iggy |
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09 February de 2003 at 07:14:54
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I should add that when I spoke to whistle (call admission), one thing was clear: there and then I committed for life.
Let no one think that we said something like, well ... going to enter into the work and you will live like a cash, but it will be a time you will see if you accommodate these same vida.Tú see if this is what God asks, and so on. Still, if you do not feel comfortable here, and leave it alone.
NO! Let me make clear what the true situation facing a 14 or 15 years when spoken to whistle. First convince you that you have a vocation and then it is up to you, your generosity and accept the will of God, decide or not. But what the young think, what you see, what lives, is that the decision commits the rest of his life.
There are legal issues which I have forgotten a little. Perhaps someone could remind us. I believe that the admission "formal" occurs with the offering, which takes place within a few years.
Possibly, I do not know with certainty, thus the work is covered backs "gate-out" that is public opinion. Since no one can say that a boy of 14 years and a half has come lawfully to belong to the work.
But within doors; what the boy or girl sees is very different. They live a momentous time in their lives. Comparable to the time when a person gives his heart and life to someone else and decide to marry and live together, or when someone else decides to give his life to God to be a monk, nun, etc..
So I think there is no question of lack of sensitivity or professionalism. It's not whether you speak at school or in the treetops. It's about honesty, to go ahead with the truth, respect for the conscience of a person. A scrupulous respect for the conscience of a person if it is minor.
This is what always reproach to Opus Dei. On other issues do not get involved. From what I served to hallow the little things if one has to commit such outrages moral youth? The end justifies the means, perhaps? The end seems good: more workers for the harvest, young people who fight for the church, young people for the work. But the media? The Holy Spirit inspires vocations using such tricks?
I conclude by saying that I rely on my own experience. And I can not swear that the same injustice that was committed to me was committed with others. Each person is different. Every friendship is different, and of course, friendship and trust are key factors in a pitaj as I lived. |
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| iggy |
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09 February de 2003 at 07:31:48
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Now I ask a question. You all remember those "macro plans" such as trips to see the Pope (in Rome, or any of the countries visited by the Pope), retreats, UNIV, balls of the Father, and so on.
In these cases there is a major component: a sort of collective excitement to know that person especially important (the Pope, the Father) or by visiting unknown sites (Villa Tevere, Torreciudad, the Vatican, etc.) and meet new people, enthusiasts or members of Opus Dei in other parts of the world.
Well. All this has to do with the title of this section because I suggest that you give me your opinion on something. I have spoken before the great moral responsibility is to raise the call to a young boy.
Do you think that in the work using these "macroplanes" I mentioned to raise the call to young and not so young to take advantage of the special situation of the moment and thus more easily able to convince the person to say yes?
True, the explanation of them on these trips is that the Holy Spirit is behaving very well and so it is good time to harvest. But seen from outside, I fear that things are not as pretty or as magical.
Please give your opinions. |
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| Evaristo |
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09 February de 2003 at 08:33:33
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I recognize the sentence that begins this item, you can locate all to interpret. But once it was clear that no matter who speak at school or at the top of a tree (remember the scandal that resulted in some people started talking about whistling in the tutorial) going to what really matters. Can a 15 springs provide commitments that require you to life?
Looking for a general answer I think I'm in a position to say yes. Or at least, has the same commitment from which one 18. If I apuráis, the same as a 20 or 30 years. And sometimes, more
So far the "generalization". I say "widespread" because the company would gain much if you teach youth the value of commitment, so reviled today. And youth is capable of commitment. Then, in general, not aberrant pose serious things to adolescents. It is not manipulate or interfere with their consciences. Or, following the reasoning is so much manipulation as you can exercise the wonderful world of Marlboro, or the house of Big Brother.
But let's go down to the everyday, day to day.
Some things in life that are eternal while it lasts. This means that as time passes will viewed from different angles. And you have to do with love, even more so. So, without changing the person, commitment, option, we are to have to rethink, to rebuild, to rediscover. If one adds a religious or spiritual component, this is accentuated. Those who, after a while faithful to youth engagement, over time the re-based, are never equal his own experience. That means that decisions are made (did mature? Not always) that affirm the person who started on the road, or make you take another course.
Apply all this to Opus, and any aspects of life (career, marriage, social ...)
Good rollet me out, right?
Term: I remind you that the current Spanish education system forced teenagers to choose an academic option for just 15 añitos. And conditions them well into the future. If I advise you to go by lyrics (no longer called that, but good) "I'm manipulating?
Greetings, and thank you, moderator. |
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| iggy |
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09 February de 2003 at 08:41:49
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| comparison between advising a student who goes by letters or notebooks using calligraphy Rubio has nothing to do with all that I stated. It seems you do not want find out Evaristo. If I advise someone to go by letters, not ride him any living or traveling to Rome to get me to say yes, either call upon God or tell you before you were already born in the mind of God predestined to study science or letters Nor will press you nuts and do you decide on an evening (to me made me decide in a few hours), and a person choosing a career does not go immediately to live such important ties of friendship and confidence within a community "religious" or call it whatever you call. Evaristo, I think you can understand more than they appear;. |
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| iggy |
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09 February de 2003 at 08:55:07
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and when you advise someone to study philology experts or do not put a plan in a work center, by which the local board of a center: the deputy director, the director, the priest and other cash that is your best friend in that center, you have to address, and one after another - to talk to you alone, you decide. People who have great power to influence you because they are older and you have 14, are friends and in many cases your own teachers at school.
The differences between talking to whistle and advise a book, career, etc. are clear Evaristo. Of course anything can change our life in a second, as a tile that flies down. But Evaristo, is so difficult to understand that I want to respect the conscience and freedom of a young boy? |
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| iggy |
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09 February de 2003 at 09:03:30
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on the other hand, I agree with you that a 14 or 15 years may have the same ability to engage an adult. Each case is different obviously.
But it has the same maturity.
And so the whistle to discuss methods are not the same with a 14 year old kid with a mature man or woman. Abuses are always easier to perpetrate with people who has not yet matured in all facets of human or vital. A boy of 14 years still has little experience of life in general, do not you think? A local council may be exceeded with a 14 years. But if an adult does perhaps have a problem because an adult knows better defend themselves. |
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| Evaristo |
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09 February de 2003 at 10:13:27
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True, it may be up ridiculous comparison of whistle and going by letters. But you make between beep and manipulate consciousness. Honestly I do. And the comparison of Nosequien with sexual abuse and the havoc caused is big.
You know that I will never question the personal experiences and the vision that everyone has them (each one think what he wants) but to educate, engage, assess, deliver ... that's not while respecting freedom of conscience or a young boy. More young people make the Communion and are baptized. And older married. Or not.
Maturity, Iggy, is giving the ability to compromise, among other things. A mature teenager opting for something. Whatever.
Let the matter of methods. The worst thing is that even many Fellows, however directors who are, have heard the message of the Father. That is, the more radical section of road like we have discussed in another discussion. Remember that the holy coercion is coercion, and the trouble is that many will think Opus is. Like many exOpus.
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| Alvaro |
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09 February de 2003 at 10:20:04
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D. Evaristo,
In your last post, you say:
"Let's what really matters. Can a 15 springs provide commitments that require you to life?. Looking for a general answer I THINK I am able to say yes. Or at least, has the same capacity commitment to an 18. If I apuráis, the same as a 20 or 30 years. And sometimes more. "
But you forget one small detail. And is that Spain is a rule of law, and persons not covered by the tests in psychology and their mental age, but by the Civil Code. And a minor (up to 18 years) has no capacity to act and are your parents have custody.
A minor can not enter into any commitment without parental consent. Whether it points to a school like a football team, as if signing a labor contract.
And that is the crux of the matter (that you as a carer of Opus, never admit) that while a school, a soccer team or an entrepreneur, when "whistle" to lower their request to their parents sign the form, in Opus, on the contrary, he convinces the child to hide it from their parents. And it is not until age 18 when they make public their commitment to their parents.
Alvaro Valdenebro
Málaga - España
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| ana |
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09 February de 2003 at 12:59:58
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hello again, I will perfect the item that you open, Iggy, because just wanted to come to talk about this.
my angers me to continue going through what happened to me with 14.5 years, so I want to copy something I did not write myself, but I find interesting:
"Despite the Code of Canon Law prohibits admitting anyone under 18 years, Opus Dei has a way of circumventing this provision: It has created the category of" candidate "." nothing to prohibit a candidate (regardless of his youth ) be considered as a candidate for a time, until age 17 "as it says in Article 2, paragraph 4, of the Statutes of 1982. from the point of view of Opus Dei, the mere fact of expressing the desire to join can make 14 year olds are secret members of the work, without requiring any notification at authorities or parents. (actually, currently exists within the Opus Dei the status of candidate, to which boys have access 14.5 years without knowledge of their parents. "
to this I would like to continue what has been exposed Iggy on macro-plans ... I have not time, then come back.
So if I find shameful is it for spiritual retreats with children 15 years that is not closer to God, but that children piten the maximum possible. now I know a couple of cases, which would you say? denouncement at people who are exerting psychological pressure without evidence? Who's going to take notice? Which court? where they think they are going to stop once these manipulators of children killed? perhaps want to believe God at his side? if so, I do not know anything about God.
we are talking about something very serious, lifelong condition. ah! and Evaristo, thanks for laughing when I compared the feeling of being manipulated with sexual assault. (I told you that they consider funny opus ...)
see you later!
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| aquilina |
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09 February de 2003 at 15:12:53
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I do not think it's so obvious that one 15 AA boys. can commit for life. Although they are very capable of understanding very well the value of compromise, and, even more have to be helped by their parents to take more and more important commitments, are still at an age where they have to achieve their personal identity, and that is also obtained with situations of opposition to his original family, which are very diffuse and physiological at this age. These oppositions often become softer after a short time, when the boy, or girl, have come to understand who they are and build their true personality. Pose-and methodically-the problem of vocation in an age where there are these dynamics of personality development can only be based on bad faith more or less acknowledged by cash or shift numerary. I think many do so in a spirit very close to good faith, and this is important work can be done with this forum and others like it to change the praxi of the institution.
In each case, even if what he says Evaristo right about the ability of these aa. choose for life, what can never be successful is the approach that you make-from this moment you've blown !!!!!- and vocation is forever and any internal thinking is certainly a temptation to be cut.
And even if they see that they have no vocation, can only be them who see it and do not recognize the person concerned the ability to hit on its domestic situation. This only fits into a society of spiritual children for life.
As always, with much forgiveness for my failures due to foreign language.
A greeting to all of
Aquilina  |
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| Neyda |
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09 February de 2003 at 15:59:25
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| I have not got much time participating in this forum, in fact my attitude is more passive (I have never belonged to the Work as many of us here and there are issues that can not talk because I lack the necessary information, even if I opinion). I thought it appropriate to intervene in this matter, I am telling you: I once had the opportunity to ask someone who does belong to the Work for which beeped (it did at an early age, school). All I said was that from the beginning and warned that it would require much thought it was not all receive. At that time it seemed a somewhat defensive response, as if to show that it was clear that the commitments would thereafter acquire, at no time when I questioned him what, I asked different question. Given the discomfort that arose the question does not want to insist. The point is that she could not answer why bleeped. Personally I think if I had done with an older age (whether or not there right in its decision) at least if I could answer that question. Maybe it would have ended or whistling, who knows ... But anyway, just a personal opinion. |
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| Evaristo |
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09 February de 2003 at 18:33:31
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I think Opus Dei, no less, and no more, endorse any legal commitment. No one signed any paper saying "I am the Opus. The compromise to which I refer is purely spiritual. I did not get to make the fidelity, nor of the will, but I think the contractual relationship remained undocumented.
That scheme has its pros and cons, which I imagine is used to benefit everyone. On the one hand, freedom to leave when you want, and against, that desire for economic contribution has already been reported here.
And spiritually, a teenager is richer than we can imagine. And perfectly capable of making commitments. It is free from error, but that also happens to more talluditos. An eternal spiritual commitment is always, God is not stupid, the religious vocation and is there forever. Then you need to raise the vocation as something eternal, because it is. There are a thousand quotes from the Bible about it, but I do not have on hand. That's the theory.
But vocation is revealed little by little, step by step. In this personal discovery of the vocation (of an adolescent or anyone) come into play conditioners billion. And every person, every soul can to discover his place in the Church and its mission before God. The spirit of Opus Dei constantly encourages that discovery, and ensures that reflect constantly concerned about their domestic situation. Remember that in the talk, first requires faith, purity and dedication.
What to hide it from parents, indeed, continues to surprise me. I say it as if it were a standard, and not think so.
Ana, not that I laugh at your famous comparison, it seems to me to piss off the pot. Sexual assault is very serious.
I hope I have answered a tod @ s
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| Alvaro |
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09 February de 2003 at 19:46:28
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D. Evaristo:
Do not you know or you do not want to know?
1) What is not written any document to enter the Opus? Are you sure?.
2) What is to conceal from the parents is not a general case?.
Evaristo, "you've been in Opus or Depor?
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| Evaristo |
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09 February de 2003 at 19:55:40
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Ah!!! You mean the letter?
What parent, I am sure.
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