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Now is when doubt |
Evaristo
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07 October de 2002 at 19:53:33  
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This is where I doubt if I was in Opus Dei or the house of Big Brother. I have a few days leyéndoos, and I admit, really starting to doubt my own past.
There are many things that I would like to discuss, but I do not know what to start, you put me very hard. But basically, I think you have a serious problem, I have read many contradictions and inconsistencies, and foremost, want to be mentally straws. (For the record, he used that expression from the Center for Studies, sorry if a little coarse 
Just point a couple of little things (or temillas ...):
1. Opus Dei taught me what the word freedom really means (and how to carry my life in order to use it for others, for everyone else) I did it while I was in Opus, and still do now.
2. It is true that some of the most assholes (this expression I learned in the Study Center, he knew from before) I've met in my life are the Opus. Others will not. And the best person in the world, and at most I wanted, is in the Opus. Others will not. Mania qualifiers you have, milk.
Incidentally, my current relationship with Opus Dei is almost zero
Besos, pax, and those things
By the way, I love the forum. |
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| iggy |
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08 October de 2002 at 04:30:12
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Hola Evaristo,
To me I do not like to generalize or to judge people collectively. I do not like being judged so, and therefore, I believe I am entitled to ask if I am one of those who "have a serious problem" or if my messages have contradictions and inconsistencies, as you say that this forum is "generally" . Thank you.
By the way, about what freedom is, I did not need to enter the work to know its meaning. In fact, as I told yesterday, I entered the work was, in itself, an affront to my freedom. Maybe I was an isolated case or an exception? Perhaps.
You say the O.D. taught you to bring freedom to your life in order to use it for others - for all, yes
Well that's good. Congratulations.
What a pity that those who abused my youth and innocence pitaj on my ideas were not as clear as you. I assure you it was well-educated people, who are probably still inside (not like you or me) - and since then had also gone through a Center of Studies like you and me.
Iggy |
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| Ulises |
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08 October de 2002 at 14:44:51
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| If we have serious problems if we have inconsistencies and contradictory or if we become mentally straws, please let us say which are precisely for that is this forum, I guess. So learn all, and who knows, perhaps discover what really is freedom. |
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| Evaristo |
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08 October de 2002 at 21:38:19
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First things first
"I do not like it generalize or to judge people collectively. I do not like being judged so, "
I assure you it is the response I expected. She knew that nobody likes to be generalized (not to offend sensibilities nuances ... almost no one) And in several posts in this forum it is said that hardly anyone without correct: the opus the opus this or that. Then we apply the same yardstick to all.
"By the way, about what freedom is, I did not need to enter the work to know its meaning"
No, if necessity is not, not ever tell anyone necessary to get into the Opus to find freedom (that would generalize ...) but in my case, my experience, and there it is. Other things I have been learning in other areas of my life. The suffering I knew him because I'm from Atleti ... not by the hair shirt.
"Well that's good. Congratulations "
Thanks
"What a pity that those who abused my youth and innocence pitaj on my ideas were not as clear as you. I assure you it was well-educated people, who are probably still inside (not like you or me) - and since then had also gone through a Center of Studies like you and me. "
Quite to the "who abused" were a few ... then people complain that generalize, and the phrase can be interpreted in several ways.
"Te agradeceria tell us what these are, that's just for this forum, I presume?"
I would cite a number of inconsistencies, but also consider myself a visionary who knows everything about everyone. Anyone who can read, read. A sample button: accusations and references to the Work as are continuous cult ... and many negative references to how bad it passes, etc (or so I read) But while I've read complaints that do not deal with people when it comes ... Look, if I ever was rescued from a cult, the last thing I would want "help". I guess that would avoid any dealings with his followers. Come, I say. I do not understand these complaints, really. I even read a discussion titled BETWEEN EXOPUS let us help, or something. Is not this an attitude sectárea?
"Perhaps discover what really is freedom"
Maybe I was not well understood the first message. Again, and with pride, as I am the Opus Dei taught me what freedom really is. That is, I know, I learned. In this forum, as in many other areas of my life, I refine the concept, because as you say in a message, without Opus also can be a Christian and seek to be perfect ... perfectus est sicut Pater vester. (I had not read this sentence)
Un saludo enorme a tod @ s |
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| Invitado |
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09 October de 2002 at 02:02:21
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My God!
 We drank some wine  (or rather, a wine, not to generalize)  |
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| iggy |
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09 October de 2002 at 04:09:25
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Hi Evaristo
I see that you will not admit you made a generalization. I do not care. You will see what you say or stop saying.
Now ... if you say I am now above me who generalize by saying:
'Quite to the "who abused" were a few ... then people complain that generalize, and the phrase can be interpreted in several ways. "
Then there does not step majete. I do not have to qualify anything. Those who are abused by those who abused either many or few. That's not generalize. They were about 4 people that I talked to whistle, as I said in my recent post titled "is this respect for freedom?" . But if they were 2 or 400, I could equally well have said "those who abused" because I do not care how many people, but what those people did to me, that was what I said in my message.
iggy |
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| Ulises |
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09 October de 2002 at 14:03:41
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Certainly I am not the best person to answer on the alleged inconsistencies that you observed in this forum, I guess other people who most directly affects them you try to explain, but simply ask yourself what's so strange that people with negative experiences are common need to help each other to overcome it, and if they have lived only by and for an organization that is not surprising that demand?, remember the Stockholm syndrome, because he thinks something similar and expanded.
As you have known freedom in Opus, you mean it than say that within that organization are advised not to read certain newspapers, that you decry in other respects and all you have to say about spiritual advisors (I which are so called) is not true?, in which case it must be discussed with other ex-opus that claim otherwise. |
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| Evaristo |
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09 October de 2002 at 18:18:33
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Well, you do not qualify, I will. Indeed, nuanced ideas (especially their own) is a very healthy exercise that I recommend. And the best thing is to qualify what you are convinced. Finally, to the point: I know that excessive emphasis and even cumbersome Opus (not all, not to generalize) is legendary. To me you are going to say. But I can not understand what leads a person to beep if you really do not want. Age? Maybe ... but I assure you that a boy of fourteen years is not a moron (not all, not to generalize). And there are people that beeps with other ages, right?
In cuantoo what Ulysses says, it is noted that not married. Me neither, but about to be, and already I feel certain that anyone could qualify bursts of loss of freedom. Seriously, freedom never comes. Nobody. Neither the Opus, or the morning star. I never did. They taught me not to give it to anyone. "Freedom, Sancho, is one of the most precious gifts given to men heaven can not compare with the treasures under the earth and beneath the sea: for freedom and for honor, one can and should risk one's life. "But freedom to distinguish commitment.
Indeed, in Opus Dei and outside it, as I have ever read has given me the win: I always knew what he read and what I wanted to read, and I asked a thousand times (outside the Opus too) but never I was forbidden to read. Not even going to the theater. You might think that my experience is different, as I think of yours, but the great thing about this forum, we share those things (without hatred and with full freedom)
That people with shared negative experiences they need to help each other to overcome it's wrong just as common illusions people help each other, ie nothing. You are not a sect, of course, and the Work either. Easy, right? That was the inconsistency that I saw: they do, not us.
The Stockholm itself that takes me away. If they live .... will that is so, but takes me away muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuy.
By the way, Cune Rioja wine was a 92 that was so rich.
Greetings from the good
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| Ulises |
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09 October de 2002 at 20:14:49
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Evaristo say some very strange things.
Now, those who have left Opus explained here who left because he wanted, but many say that things are looking good in that organization, but more negative than positive, so they went and if thrown at him about not help them when they leave it is because they thought there was still good stuff.
Whether I'm married, why have you left me two candles, but I will say that I've been. As to that freedom never comes because it is a very nice sentence, but obviously uncertain, we are never completely free but we can dedicate our lives to try the possible wider margins of freedom, of course it is more difficult to achieve while in an organization like Opus with such strict rules, which are not only commitment but a clear manipulation. The fact that you consider yourself free in it implies that you might be more manipulated than you think.
As you're so sure that Opus is not a cult, I only reaffirms my belief that your freedom is not such boast.
Do I make a couple of addresses if you want contracta ideas.
http://www.geocities.com/hemerosectas/admon32.htm
http://www.cop.es/delegaci/tenerife/revista17-sectas.html
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| iggy |
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09 October de 2002 at 20:38:06
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Hi Evaristo, your last post and I did not finish it (do not qualify for not hurt), but thanks for your effort to clarify things.
In this forum everyone portrays what he writes. So I do not have to judge when everyone can read what each wrote and judge for yourself.
Majete luck.
Iggy |
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| Evaristo |
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09 October de 2002 at 21:23:21
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So much will it cost you to understand that the freedom of a person is only constrained by the limitations imposed yourself?
Are you so afraid to tell you that I do things because I get the balls?
So much you insult there is another version?
And it is the first time in my life that someone dares to say that I "manipulated" Sorry, kid, but what is your defect reports: if one of Opus tells you who are manipulated, put it to give birth to satiety .
Indeed, IgG (or majete, or as you are) thanks for forgiving life ...
PS I have seen these links ... and I prefer Quixote... |
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| Evaristo |
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09 October de 2002 at 21:33:31
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I forgot ... on links ...
I practice not to pay much attention to the bishops, or those Belgians, or to Lapland, or the Basque ...
And sects economic damage ... do not tell a Echevarría, but I was still a student ... and owed money... |
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| Lola2002 |
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10 October de 2002 at 01:04:25
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I really do not understand you Evaristo 
Lola
icq: 172943141
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| Ulises |
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10 October de 2002 at 17:26:14
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Evaristo, we all cut our freedom by ourselves, and mostly for reasons beyond our control, but we accept it because it is necessary for coexistence, another thing is that society as we seek and we evolved to get those margins of freedom are increasingly older, but of course if you are satisfied with the "freedom" offered within Opus, beyond you.
On handling, I do not feel offended if I say, it would be naive not to know, we manipulated the information we receive and many more things, but if you do not realize that they do within Opus, how do you go to explain the others?.
About the link, I fear comparison with Don Quixote makes little sense, each thing has its role and interest ..... but if you want to brainstorm ideas and firm sequar plantearte yours without doubt, you're free to do so only note that phrase "the school is certainly the truth."
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| Evaristo |
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10 October de 2002 at 18:10:16
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Hi Ulises
"The school is certainly the truth"
That is so pretty, and obviously true, but incomplete. The truth is most schools, and it is accessed from multiple locations.
But you can also get doubt, as you say. Whoever wants to get to the truth of things, wondering, doubting, I think this discussion contains in its title the word doubt.
And dudad all, even from your own experience and your viewpoints to the Opus. I promise that I will do likewise.
And follow not that I am not aware of the manipulations, because seriously, you offend my intelligence. And if he can offend in this forum, let me know, that I display the artillery.
Do you understand that well, Lola2002? |
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| cazuelo |
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10 October de 2002 at 19:33:42
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I remain yours "controversy" with some distance and, why not say so, with skepticism that llegéis to agree. Not everyone in Opus Dei is demonized and everything is as bright as the "official truth" sells. Already 18 years ago if I'm out of the Work and in the end I concluded that most, if not objective, it honestly, is looking to analyze their methods and not at people.
In Opus Dei, Evaristo Indeed, there are assholes and beautiful people, and hard climb ... but that happens everywhere.
Now, friend, answer (if you want) to these questions. Opus Dei as an organization, do you engage in double-talk, such as "my children, are very free" and then you control the slightest act?
And more: you say the maximum expresi'pn to ask you one thing is "please" and then you say that when the director asks you for something please, should be taken "as an imperative mandate." Then ... Which is it? How do you rate this system? (Besides, I'm glad you felt so well in Opus Dei and to keep such good memories of their members. I, for some, too. In others, however, prefer to forget). |
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