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iggy
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01 February de 2003 at 06:02:52  
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We talked about colleges and youth clubs work "cultural" (or whatever you call)-to guys or girls of 13 or 14 and older-
But I think we have not spoken to other clubs for younger children where there are many types of sports, arts, crafts, etc.. but deep down these clubs are like the hotbed of young vocations. Of the colleges guess work out most of the vocations young-underage-but the work is also interested in young kids from other schools and clubs are a way to "hunt".
Surely in this forum there are many people who can explain the operation of these clubs much better than me (though I spent a year living in a facility that was dedicated to this work with younger children)
Many of us we have not gone through one of these clubs ... |
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| nic |
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02 February de 2003 at 00:53:41
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hi iggy, I'm nic, New Here ... thank you because you give me the opportunity to discuss children's clubs that if they are not corporate works of Opus Dei, are driven by people, usually mothers who are super numerary of Opus Dei, therefore, with all the spirit of the Works well spent ... know iggy? when I was very young, 8 to 10 years participated in these clubs, I have very nice memories of that time, but the memories and experiences more pleasant when I have them participate in the club xx, learning so many things ... Above all, my faith became stronger, taught me to live the Christian and human virtues as well, we passed us mortal, undoubtedly prepared me to face life as a Christian person consistent with his faith ... iggy is the best thing that could have happened, now that I am relatively more, I have my kids and a husband I adore best is when I realized the value of those years spent in the heat of work, is wonderful, I tired of giving thanks to God for having "elated" that way ... another day I'll tell you more of my story ... see you soon iggy  |
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| iggy |
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02 February de 2003 at 08:12:29
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thanks for telling your experience nic. I am glad that all you have done so well and that you are so happy. But I must say I am surprised you say that these centers are led by supernumerary.
Here in Spain at least, are cash and numeraries, who bear the brunt of the leadership and organization of activities. (unless things have changed a lot since I left work)
From what you say you are a married woman, and therefore have not really known what is whistle of cash or cash. But good nic, here all the comments and all are welcome and experiences among all try to give clear and know many things. thanks |
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| nic |
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02 February de 2003 at 19:16:22
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| hi iggy: as you say we are to clarify and disclose more about the Opus Dei ... look, clubs little girls 8 to 10 years do not work in centers of Opus Dei are the supernumerary who, in their homes, teaching and entertaining kids are cemented in the mind those Christian virtues and piety through talks and relevant to their Cortitas age ... these clubs can be considered seed but NOT vocation to Opus Dei but of Christian life ... Now, it is logical that a girl / or who has put that seed of Christian life is much easier to turn on the large seed of the vocation to Opus Dei ... you know Iggy? not everyone understands this great truth, Vocation is imposed muuuuuuuuy is something divine, supernatural, of God entirely and is very nice answer to the love of God that declares you ... I repeat, it is somewhat difficult to understand this especially if there is no God or supernatural meaning in life, especially if we are a bit away from it, in this case the fresh obligations which carries a life of dedication is seen as a burden unbearable, everything looks black, there is a huge rebellion ... I agree that not everyone in Opus Dei persevere in any other place where life is a divine vocation, of course, some may go and nothing happens, is part of the system, as an adult I understand well, you no? ... the reality is that those who leave are a minority and they still love them ... is further evidence that the body is healthy, good for today ... see you soon: Nic |
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| nic |
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02 February de 2003 at 19:18:00
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| hi iggy: as you say we are to clarify and disclose more about the Opus Dei ... look, clubs little girls 8 to 10 years do not work in centers of Opus Dei are the supernumerary who, in their homes, teaching and entertaining kids are cemented in the mind those Christian virtues and piety through talks and relevant to their Cortitas age ... these clubs can be considered seed but NOT vocation to Opus Dei but of Christian life ... Now, it is logical that a girl / or who has put that seed of Christian life is much easier to turn on the large seed of the vocation to Opus Dei ... you know Iggy? not everyone understands this great truth, Vocation is imposed muuuuuuuuy is something divine, supernatural, of God entirely and is very nice answer to the love of God that declares you ... I repeat, it is somewhat difficult to understand this especially if there is no God or supernatural meaning in life, especially if we are a bit away from it, in this case the fresh obligations which carries a life of dedication is seen as a burden unbearable, everything looks black, there is a huge rebellion ... I agree that not everyone in Opus Dei persevere in any other place where life is a divine vocation, of course, some may go and nothing happens, is part of the system, as an adult I understand well, you no? ... the reality is that those who leave are a minority and they still love them ... is further evidence that the body is healthy, good for today ... see you soon: Nic |
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| pusey-2 |
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02 February de 2003 at 19:48:08
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Nic, you've changed, and not as directly insulting, we just say we went because they hold our delivery, etc.., Etc.
You can stop by the imagination that the Work (as an institution) is never wrong. If that's your approach just want to warn you that you have no good to any institution as an absolute (also the Church has been wrong many times). Also, after leaving work I noticed that there are many people inside and outside the church whom you can trust more than many managers or caretakers (who unfortunately have to look through the numbers for the sake of people who have entrusted).
Hasta luego.
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| pusey-2 |
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02 February de 2003 at 19:53:28
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Nic, you need to read the following thoughts of Antonio Ruiz Retegui numerary priest on abuse that makes you call "supernatural vision"
"The reference at indications of the directors as privileged manifestation of the will of God, is a special case of a tendency to assume that" supernatural "is to be somewhat violent over" natural ".
The supernatural is above the natural, but does not abolish it, but it requires its own basis "non tollit gratia naturam, sed supponit, sanat, et elevat perficit eam" Grace does not take away from nature but is presumed sound, perfects and elevates it, traditional Christian theology teaches.
Despite this assertion, the nature of the supernatural extranatural is underlined frequently at the expense of nature, especially so when making references to "supernatural" in the field of ordinary Christian life. Therefore it is necessary to specify clearly the relationship between the natural and the supernatural in the field of education and government.
Especially it should be remembered that the supernatural does not override or replace or diminish the natural. This need arises from the fact that, as we said, the most direct and frequent affirm the supernatural is to deny the natural: to affirm the transcendent world, the church there are Christians who are called to live the "contemptus mundi, contempt the world. This mentality is present in the religious history of Christian asceticism and behavior of many people who must live the love of the world, and they even have the responsibility to guide the lives of other people, but fall into the temptation of what have called the government insurer. In these cases there are distortions of the Christian life and spirit of the Work, but not directly, ie not by a distortion or mutilation of faith or of the "spirit", but because I have some annulment claiming more or least important of the natural base that is needed.
John Paul 11 has warned in the encyclical "Fides et Ratio" which is a grave error to think that faith is more secure based on weak reasoning: "It is illusory to think that faith, tied to weak reasoning, might be more penetrating; On the contrary, falls into the grave risk of withering into myth or superstition "(n. 4  .
Therefore, the areas most dominated by external regulations, and which serves little to the nature of things, are sometimes considered more "supernatural". Actually, that view is supported only in those environments that are less "natural" and on the assumption that the supernatural to the natural substitute. Therefore, it is not strange that those who qualify for more supernatural only those areas that are less natural and more violently dominated by institutional regulations.
Of course these views, which considered the supernatural in contentious relationship with the natural, do not appear explicitly, but if they are present implicitly in the ascetic and spiritual language when making few references to specific and individual nature of people. There are, indeed, speeches, like those of John Paul II, which, although very demanding, inspire a great sense of freedom. Instead, there are others that almost immediately feel an inner restlessness, a fear that horn he makes those speeches did not understand or respect the person singular. The reason for this difference is precisely the presence or absence implied in these statements, the teleological nature of people.
When speaking only from the requirement of God's love, is certainly wrong to speak of the love of God, but do not mention that God wants to be loved by each person according to the specific nature and individual has been granted. But God loveth not those who feel called to live in human love, or remain within the world. The waiver of such inclinations is not only a matter of generosity. It depends, and must rely on natural inclinations. Therefore, if the ascetic and spiritual discourse no critical references to nature, it may seem that it is all about God's love or generosity. Accordingly, references to God's love and surrender, are disturbing. Even more so if it is stated again and again that is a sign that God wants something just the feel some concern about these possibilities. There is a vast difference between the anxiety engendered by a glimpse of the love and the anxiety that comes from a way of presenting things that do not contain the necessary reference to nature. Also there seems to be more supernatural what is less natural.
When the will of God is almost exclusive reference to foreign law or the mandates of the authority, evading the prime source of manifestation of divine love that is the nature of things as is captured by natural reason. In this view, lies a disregard for nature and their own faculties, as reason and feelings, on the basis that they are wounded by original sin. This is to forget that natural reason is capable of decisively also known in the field of the most important things. Such disregard for nature also has its roots in fear at differences between the capacities of individuals, and seeks a complete leveling of all by the procedure of canceling the nature and substitute the mandates of the authority, making people guided in their judgments and conduct them exclusively as indicated.
So who are implicitly more "supernatural" are those who have little of their own, and are almost exclusively people "institutional", ie people whom the most important capabilities of nature have been reduced to almost nothing. "
It is long, but worth it meditate.
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| nic |
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02 February de 2003 at 22:57:25
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| pussey, que tal, how are you? I see you do a long discertacion on the natural and the supernatural ... giving you real philosophical judgments: the supernatural nonviolent nature, far from it entails and brings the ... I'll take that sentence that summarizes your entire message ... does not take many words to say a truth implicit in the content ... I think I have a philosophical and theological formation enough to talk about it, but it is the subject of this sub-forum, sorry ... let's the important thing, we talked of clubs ... I thought I saw some of your messages to ensure the use of manipulation to attract boys to the OD ... according to my experience, I know enough to OD, Iggy assure you that if something is not done in the ministry undertaken by its members is to manipulate at souls (that sounds bad eh ?)... there is a total and absolute freedom, the apostolate is something divine, of God, which is made much sense trying to have supernatural prayer, mortification and then, very thirdly the action, what you say to the person, aid you pay if that person show wishes to serve God through the Opus Dei ... but never a compulsion ... I have known this very ... Iggy will be up soon, a hug: Nic |
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| pusey-2 |
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02 February de 2003 at 23:52:29
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No, those thoughts are not mine, I wish I could have that ability to speak philosophically. Also did not want us to talk to them, only that the Meditations.
As for the clubs, your index really is what should be, ie which clubs only help them learn to acquire human virtues (order, study, self-control, in short, in an atmosphere of good cheer) and Hence a self-convincing the young of what their vocation. But the thing is not so. The ultimate goal is to capture clubs vocations, and the teachers are pressured to "push". Well that puts prayer and mortification, but what fails is the action: they collapse in moral coercion with arguments like "I see your vocation, and though he does not see you now", "if you join, you'll like rich young man ".
It is also unfortunate that in this age group are not direct people to be good father or mother, but to celibacy is not that force nature, as I said earlier text Retegui Ruiz? How do you know in this age group (14-17 years) that someone is called to be celibate for life?
This may not necessarily be so in all cases. I did not know he had clubs run by supernumerary, but I have confirmed that this is (they are "way stations"). I hope that mothers of Opus have that common sense is lacking in schools led by celibate.
You said that only a minority leave Opus Dei. That's not true. At least in the center of aggregates in which he was: every year whistled two or three two and many others were leaving. In my group were 6 aggregates. You know it was already 3 or 4. I suppose the extra will have more perseverance, but most things are generally unaware of internal (eg, not allowed to attend ceremonies at sacrifice or loyalty of cash or added-in such cases will be thrown in the oratory until recently) and can enjoy greater freedom.
And I end with this view. The Christian vocation is not to be confused with the vocation to a particular institution, however it is divinely inspired. Therefore the miss in a genuine work of vocational guidance. The entrance is usually done as yet in Masonry, by personal invitation. As output, you can only do it when you show them (regardless of the farce that involves writing a letter of acceptance or resignation).
Well Nick, as a mother I think you have a duty to know the experiences shown here. I recommend the book "Children in Opus Dei" by Javier Ropero who will find http://www.opusdeilibros.com.
PDDices you have not yet requested admission. However you use the same arguments that we used when we were all inside. What is your story? |
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| Invitado |
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03 February de 2003 at 20:42:37
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hi. I can finally log in as guest, as you are?, I'm Nic , true! ... that if Opus Dei, I'm on this forum to clarify some little things ... First, I will tell you that time, time, I do not have, but make an effort not worth it because the people reading this forum are confused 
Pusey says that in the previous post has some truth but most of the message is wrong (sorry Pusey) is perhaps lack of knowledge, do not judge the intentions ... proselytism in Opus Dei than any other institution as practiced, is not exactly as planteais in this forum ... forthe who want to learn the activities and modus operandi "of Opus Dei may be referred to the statutes of the Prelature and the Catechism of the Work. there will find information accurate and serious as we might expect ... OD is a Personal Prelature, erected as such by Pope John Paul II in 1982 ... is an institution of the Catholic Church in 2028 to fulfill its centenary of foundation ... Interested persons may send their questions to the Information Office of Opus Dei, is based not only in Rome but in all cities where their members work ... see you soon: Nic
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| pusey-2 |
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03 February de 2003 at 20:59:06
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Well that's enough of teasing people! Can not stand the little game that are taking the two Nic's. One says that is not of the Work, but it will be. The other says it is already. And yet speak the same. Or is that a schizophrenic?
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| Ulises |
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04 February de 2003 at 11:49:59
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Pusey-2, do not dazed man!, the odd characters that appear not as nic, nic-1, nic-2 etc etc, the strange thing that had not appeared before. Try tomartelo like a bad movie of the kind that are used to relax after a hard day's work, if you see something interesting, pass it, if you want to get away from all care for a while-you laughing at them, because for me they are hermaphrodites (that exists in Opus?).    |
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| ana |
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04 February de 2003 at 18:30:38
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hello Pusey.
I'm glad someone confirm what I have been saying for some time!: that Opus Dei urges minors to complete delivery in sentences (which I consider coacionadoras) like "you but now you do not have a vocation of total surrender "
Pusey thanks!  |
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| ana |
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04 February de 2003 at 18:30:47
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hello Pusey.
I'm glad someone confirm what I have been saying for some time!: that Opus Dei urges minors to complete delivery in sentences (which I consider coacionadoras) like "you but now you do not have a vocation of total surrender "
gracias pusey! |
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| cabernet |
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04 February de 2003 at 18:39:25
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The message signed by "Nic" numerary version (because no other "Nick" who says that Opus is not but is about to be) attributed to DISREGARD the quoted text inserted by Pusey.
However, as Pusey says that text is not theirs but of D. Antonio Ruiz Retegui, physicist and theologian, priest of Opus Dei numerary.
I will copy a paragraph from the biography of Ruiz Retegui: "Antonio Ruiz Retegui training held positions in Opus Dei, first in domestic work and later as chaplain Mayr of the University of Navarra and Director, Department of Theology to College. The character independent of their teaching and the staff always force their priestly and apostolic work, eventually gave way to an unresolved dispute with the authorities of this university, which he left in 1990. She died a priest of Opus Dei after being away from his educational work and in total isolation. "
Nic: Do you really think that Mr Antonio Ruiz Retegui not know the Opus Dei? "You know him better?
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| Invitado |
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05 February de 2003 at 20:37:36
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| Good night, he writes Carlos, I will not intervene on grounds of forum that does not interest me. I want to tell you in cyberspace between muchisimas there is the possibility of preventing them from disclosing your identity. This is by imitating cyberspace. Speakers writing in the style of other surfers, P. eg. copies the three dots ... , or write like him, which brings a total confusion, especially if the other side are trying to identify .... by esol recommend not wasting time trying to figure out identities. Good night |
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