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AGGREGATES versus NUMERARYS |
iggy
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01 November de 2002 at 03:16:48  
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For me, that I specie, the aggregates were largely unknown (I refer to the peculiarity of his vocation). When I Pite not even know there was another chance to live this vocation but without "family life".
Now that I am of the work, even for simple curiosity, I wonder how they have added to their vocation is to be added.
What is so peculiar a person or their circumstances to be added to raise cash rather?
How do they see the calling of cash? Do we have any cases in this forum of someone who would be cash and told to aggregate beep?
And what are these peculiarities of character or whatever, that make a NSF could or should not live in "family" |
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| volo |
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02 November de 2002 at 14:32:28
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Dear Iggy, the questions you pose are very interesting, tricky and not easy to answer. In fact, messages that seem contradictory answer and I think we all have a point. Underlying all was the reason for the aggregates, that is why they appear in the OD and contributors. In my personal opinion, not to forget the structure of society that is born and develops the OD, a society with social classes and inequalities too obvious. The first aggregates the world (obviously Spanish) I think it is around 1950 and were young men (not teenagers) who belonged to a working class environment. In this regard, the aggregates (then called Oblates, horrible word that later in the 70 was changed to aggregates) were called to give themselves totally to God in the OD in the "working world" at that time in Spain. Numeraries harian so in the "intellectual world." So the first clubs of aggregates and the first pitaj were linked to this environment (always with exceptions for not pique anyone). The addition was in that environment, lived with his family and was certainly could not live in a center of the Work, or by their schedules, or their social status and it said no pejorative sense. How would I live in a Center, serving food a numerary assistant with apron and cap, someone than at home, at best, ate the first, second and dessert in the same dish). booed and many mid-60s had miners in Asturias, in Madrid and Barcelona metallurgical, construction workers, workers field, etc.. At the same time in Spain was emerging middle class began to send their children to college (sons of officials, professionals established in small towns, etc.) that came into contact with the work of RE and for very different just beeping of aggregates. Parallel to this situation was a rout rather important vocations of aggregates in the working world, so that already from the 80 that whistled practically aggregates were high school graduates who would also then college. Like happened in Spain happened in some Latin American country (many workers who left the aggregates and subsequent work were people with high school or college). It is also true in relation to what is said in some previous remarks, that if for Fellows appeared some club some lame (for example) and showed signs of vocation with a total dedication of Added whistled. Does anyone has seen some lame, crippled, blind or deaf that whistle out of cash BEFORE? "No? From All the examples I have said I have known several aggregates, then what he says Poppy (37) without the whole story, has its share of truth.
Iggy, not if you've got here but your question remains unanswered. Today that approach is followed. Then you say that you know there are schools, clubs and corporate works where all who go there are tenured or San Rafael, because in these places, except in exceptional cases, the pita of cash or temporary. Works in the clubs and conporativas that, in addition to the Fellows of the local council, others are added, those who whistle (also with rare exceptions) are added or temporary.
As for the "transfers" from one category to another, coinciding with some assistance:
1. Supernumerary can be passed to add or cash as appropriate.
2. Aggregate or specie is not passed to supernumerary on request, be made if the directors believe is most appropriate for that person. Another thing is waaaaay after years of having left the OD you "stop" supernumerary whistle again.
3. Aggregate can move into cash after several (many) years, if the directors and the party so they see appropriate. Not usually, I have only known two cases.
4. Aggregate of cash to have not known any case. Not if possible. What is possible is afforded to Fellows for not living in a center of Opus Dei.
5. A curiosity if not all shall know is that a widower (including children) can be added but not cash.
As for what Iggy says to explain at the time of delivery capabilities whistle there, never been done and I do not never go. Another thing is that in current circumstances and the information society we live you can learn on their own. Myself, I am very calm and clueless, after six months of being added as time ask the director had to go to be cash. He laughed me out of the true error and I was grateful, because I believe that had endured a lot to live in a center with their schedules, say where you are going, and so on. (In fact the coexistence of 25 days in summer I seemed endless). So I held without too much trauma over 25 years.
In short, I believe that the aggregates appeared to take the spirit of OD the working world, there were many difficulties in these vocations curd and that currently there are no clear criteria to distinguish it from the cash, and that the most frequent through the center on the go. Sure Fellows centers are in the inner city and the agregasdos often in the suburbs. This I can confirm that Marc knows with centers in New York and Chicago.
Sorry about the length, but still think that there should be more nuanced.
Sincerely yours |
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| cazuelo |
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02 November de 2002 at 15:29:38
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Volo: I just wanted to give my sincere thanks for your brilliant exposure and, moreover, with this time travel you do to explain the origins of the aggregates give up in fact that today do not know very well where to pigeonhole this figure membership of the Work. As the circumstances of the years 50-60 which led to their aparción gone, er true that the criterion is at present unknown (possibly not know or the directors themselves) to beep someone like cash or added. In my time of ownership I had the feeling that was a bit "in order to fall" if they went to a center of aggregates you had a 95% chance of aggregate whistle. I repeat my thanks, Volo, your complete explanation. Greetings. Cazuelo  |
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| marc |
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02 November de 2002 at 15:44:01
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NY lived in an aggregate that was an artist well known and ecultor think that the fact was that travels a great deal and sometimes an artist can be trabjo at 3 am because I think, and imagine that in a center can not. I think that today there are many people who find the vocation late and that it would be harder to get used to living in a center is added.
Fellows I know some who do not live in institutions, and I think we have only to ask for the waiver, although obviously the Director must approve. |
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| Onlyblue |
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02 November de 2002 at 16:29:16
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In reply to this topic and especially Iggy, I clarify that I'm a little surprised by what we were aggregates of persons with some disability enfermendad etc either. I beep of aggregate and have no physical impediment, nor am I abnormal or something I can distinguish by anyone else.
I have to say that the issue is discussed as saying that pot is not true, if you have college or not, unfortunately I think (it's my own opinion, and I think that I will not misguided) that is the only factor to be added or numerary.
When I was doing Vocational beeps, and that's not the way to make a career of 5 years, oddly enough I have to say and that's the hypothesis, that we were almost all from the center of vocational training. Once when I left, I made a 3-year career.
So I asked the other day Iggy, as comment, I went to a week for a work center before the whistle. As I was told that I had a vocation to aggregate and point of fact I beep a center of cash and how much I had to go to the center of the aggregate passing bad since he did not understand because it could not be numerary.
And commenting on the passing evaristo a vocation to another, I mean pot is not quite right, evaristo if she was telling the truth in my heart that there was a way to aggregate numerary assistant (although neither is home). We also know a girl who was numerary, she left and after a few years is now supernumerary. All this clearly in another center and past years.
I must say that 9 years ago to stop the work, but two-three years after I started to let go and was a center of San Rafael, (curiously enough people do it backwards first in San Rafael and then after work I .........) to be contrary and I almost fall back and be supernumerary. The centers are to return by that was very lonely but as to overwhelm me again and now I am old enough but it did not agree. For me I have to say that there are good things, but I hate people who judges a cake and the first, one day I became tired of seeing and hypocrisies and I have not go anywhere.
Interestingly, my boyfriend's family work (many with a cousin cash), it seems that I seek, and another point now live in front of a center of cash, I see every morning when we opened the windows. It gives you good you think you do.........Omnia in bonum!!
Greetings
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| Evaristo |
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02 November de 2002 at 19:46:10
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Monumental exhibition of Volo. It's almost like an annual course, but on the web.
But by specifying minimally: the difference-added-temporary cash is not "surrender" but "availability".
Greetings |
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| marc |
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05 November de 2002 at 03:57:51
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| Ulises Vocation is the same availability is different. The Founder said that he had a single pot, that of you children of God, the difference lies in the availability |
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| iggy |
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05 November de 2002 at 04:40:57
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jajaja Marc, that the vocation is the same? After what you have told us numeraries auxiliary poppy and that most of house instead of a needle and thread using pliers and galvanized wire for making hair shirts. Certainly it is a fact that the vocation is not the same for everyone in the RE and well, many would feel happy if at least one entering the OD those who had actually call it that vocation.
I understand you to say that the vocation is the same for everyone because your brain is like a light that automatically turns on and sounds into your CPU or whatever, in mp3 format perhaps one of those phrases that will surely come from the founder, and Sure, no more turning back. "Vocation is the same but each lived on his own place and cirscuntancia" (not literal but more or less is the idea, no?). Ok, now if we understand it all ;-) Then I also have the same vocation as the Mother Teresa of Calcutta because we try to do good and not look at who she did just that in a situation different from mine. And the other with pliers and the other with the waxing machine. We all do it for love and to sanctify the neighbor or the mother who bore us.
How complicated and how simple it is all ..
Ah, indeed, should have started giving thanks to volo for his interesting and comprehensive answer, and thanks to everyone else. I learned some interesting things to read.
But I still have no clear ideas. Marc says:
The aggregates are like cash in all (...) unless for special circumstances as they are only children and support of parents living with their parents, or have someone at home sick, or late vocation would find difficult living in a center, or because they have positions of great responsibility as judges, ministers and that this circumstance could not make family life in an institution or because they are also successful professionals who have to travel a lot and can not live in a center.
For Marc to look after such a long and detailed list of reasons to tell you aggregate whistle that my own brother, younger than me, honked aggregate (and never knew why). It was not an only child, or support from anyone, no later returned the call because I was about 16 years when beeped, nor was the judge, minister or one of those artists who rise at 3 am to give a touch to his sculpture , his play or his violin concerto. Nor was traveling a lot, because she did not travel because he had nothing to go to school every day.
So go enigma, no? Maybe that's why I suggested that perhaps the character of a person or his manner, managers can make him talk to beep of cash or added. But I'm not sure. So I asked here. Maybe someone will explain it any day now. I do not know if I'll ask my brother, who was out of OD years. The truth, I'm not used to talking on the agenda with people who have left the O.D. the first because everything relating to the Work is something I had begun to forget and no longer interests me. What happens is that I came across this forum and I found it interesting. I hope not much hooked me. This forum can be addictive? If so, inform eh? but I am disconnected!
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| cazuelo |
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05 November de 2002 at 15:48:55
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| Iggy: I need not refute the arguments that someone has to go into the irony offensively and just did. I agree with you as to how the aggregates are chosen (for me it's "order of falling", as I explained a few posts before) but we are here to expose our experiences. I have been very useful a few comments because my personal experience (limited in space and time) in the Work only let me see some things that now complement and enhance achievement in other comments. In fact, I am grateful to Marc (and others) who are of the Work, is participating in the forum. Greetings to all. Cazuelo. |
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| juan Diego |
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05 November de 2002 at 18:42:16
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Greetings to all. I do not belong to the opus, but it was very interesting to me all this forum, if not addictive, but I think you grow as a person.
Here in Mexico the opus is directly associated with people of high status in the economic and polítco, in fact it says that can only be temporary cash and the blond or blond and brown-skinned aspiring to be added or numerary assistants (obviously this is what is said, not necessarily the truth). As an anecdote: my wife's grandmother, a woman with a mess and very little education, religiosity of the region was a seamstress from the "rich families and constantly said that force them to go (to her and domestic workers) to catechism, and she got mad when I said that God wanted them to be sanctified in that work there, somehow prevented them grow and get another job obviously best not to lose their employees, when he saw the canonization of Escriva, he said: ah Look, the rich already have their saint. Anyway, what I find incredible is what tells Poppy (37) about the service they offer at numerary assistants, from my perspective it seems little family spirit - is laughable, at least here, they are uniform up to cap - and may even say unworthy. But hey, it's just an appreciation of someone who does not know much about the organization.
I renew my greeting and I hope not to offend anyone. Soon I will give my experience when I left the seminar and how some things can be compared with ceasing to belong to a group, in this case religion.
Juan Diego |
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| Invitado |
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05 November de 2002 at 18:47:23
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If I had not learned about Opus Dei, and knew nothing of this institution or its members, and read this forum to inform me, I would end up a mess. The experience of each of the listeros is undeniable and perfectly respectable arguments and approved. Each has the show as he sees her, but there are some apparent contradictions between the opponents (call it that) and between advocates stressed the "official version" Scheduled
In this situation, which is good for open debate, I see two very clear conclusions: it must not be so sectarian that institution. nor should it be so uniform that institution.
And thanks, pans, which have not called "blabbermouth" nor have doubted its ability intellective...
Greetings
Evaristo |
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| cazuelo |
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05 November de 2002 at 19:28:28
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But, Evaristo, boy, what do you do with that hair? What about your nickname? (If you want to appear, put it when you go to write a message and put under the password). A hug.  |
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| iggy |
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05 November de 2002 at 19:45:47
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cazuelo, I think dramatizing it too much to say of irony offensive. Were you offended by what I said? I guess I'll say now that irony is forbidden on this forum, no? It is a stylistic device widely used in tests, forums, etc.. both by distinguished writers and columnists as ordinary people like me.
Maybe you took seriously the joke I made about the CPU and the little red light or something ... why waste time: and you tell me what was so offensive and I do not mind apologizing if I see that you're right. Thanks |
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| marc |
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06 November de 2002 at 02:47:42
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JuanDiego, good someday Tell us your experience in the seminary, but I think you know that Opus Dei, has nothing to do with a religious order, so it is a personal Prelature.
I mean that St. Josemaria Escriva is a saint of the rich, is a saint of the whole Church, not just the rich. I understand the circumstances of this lady who was forced to go to catechism .... but the other side as good a chance of the Catechism. I understand all things counter, and the terrible stories of 37 (that's obvious so coldly counted ........ well) and what they did to casseroles or others. But I ask you all stop the presses, do not tell me it is wonderful understanding of regular Santificiacion from peeling some potatoes to what is
Iggi when you say you added your brother does not match what I say I like it also clarifies that does not match the statements of other forum were saying that the Agree the lame and sick, I would like clarification, porqe not fit my description purporting to show that those who think that the aggregates are the brown-skinned, poor, black boys, the lame and the sick, for they are wrong ........
oh and thanks for continuing holding
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| iggy |
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06 November de 2002 at 06:42:21
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Hi marc, in fact, my brother was not-or is-lame or sick. I also agree with those who say that all aggregates have some physical tare. After 9 years as cash means that I got to know enough aggregate to realize this.
But obviously, having a physical tare can be a cash bar to be: I remember a kid who was not yet old enough to whistle and had cash and a brother and he was on the same path. But he was diabetic, so they were going to raise the aggregate vocation and not of cash. But the explanation they gave me is that diabetes is a disease that requires much attention and time and you can prevent-maybe-a full family life or live the full availability of cash.
That said, marc, I remember that I started this discussion-above-so we will know how to explain directors a person that his vocation is to be added when neither has a major health problem, or a defect physics, nor falls under the cases that you mentioned (have to watch your father or mother, a minister, and so on. "I've certainly never heard of a minister added, yes Fellows ministers such as Don Laureano Lopez Rodo with which I had the chance to talk alone for about 15 minutes, I was out on the agenda and he probably did not know I had been cash. But I was waiting for a person living in the middle and someone introduced me to Mr. Laureano and we started talking while my friend came).
I pointed out that in the remaining cases (ie, having no obvious disability) could perhaps be a question of personality or character (which may be taken into account by managers when deciding who can " fit "into the life of a center of cash or not). But - and I remember him once more, I opened this discussion to learn first-hand experience of how an aggregate and told him that his vocation was added and nothing else.
Of course, I am convinced that not having a college degree can be also deciding not to be cash. Why? As is clear, for the Fellows should be part of the intellectual elite of society (although that would like to start another discussion). But it is already clear that there are also aggregated university)
Marc, thank me not to put up with. (I know you were saying it tongue in cheek)  |
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| cazuelo |
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06 November de 2002 at 14:23:13
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| Iggy: "Do you explain why he had to be cash? For me, at the very moment of writing the letter to D. pitaj Alvaro director told me with much love and writes at one point put it: "I ask for admission to Opus Dei as added." This was, literally, all the "explanation" given to me. I was 15. He could guess what was added but no idea why I just had to be Added. I do not know if the Fellows (by having to live in centers) are more detailed will the matter. A greeting. Cazuelo |
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